Tom CravenThe Catholic Church
May 27th 2008 08:30
What seems to be the social norm these days is for everyone to have a go at organised religion, calling it the root of all evil and openly declaring one’s atheism like itself were a religion. But what our anti-religion friends forget to tell you, in between their unsubstantiated rants is the facts, and the facts are good.
Firstly, let us briefly examine the history of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church came into being around 40 A.D with the first Pope St.Peter it became legal around 400 A.D (following 400 years or rigorous persecution) with the reign of Emperor Constantine. The Church continued as the one branch of Catholicism up until 1000 with the first schism and then leading up to the reformation in the 1500’s. There have been no substantial break ups since the 1500’s. In that entire time, around 2000 years the Church has never changed its stance on any area of teaching, it has equivocally held up the same teachings for over 2000 years. Those teachings for the most part have been of peace and following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and since when was following Jesus’ example a bad thing?
The Church’s role over the last 100 years has been nothing but inspirational, and a close examination will reveal the hidden mysteries that the religion hating moguls don’t want you to see. In the 1940’s in Germany no organisation or group of people stood up to Hitler except one, and no it wasn’t a bunch of atheists it was the Catholic Church. Albert Einstein had this to say:
‘"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty”
Isn’t is amazing how this fact is never publicised by those people?
Even in the last 25 years the Church has been the center of the criticism of horrendous governments, in the late 1980’s what was the organisation that stood up to communism in Poland? Who was the man who rang the Russian president and ordered him to withdraw his troops from Poland? It was not the U.S President, it was the Pope. No one else, stood up to be counted. The Pope had the courage, and he and the Church stood up for what it believed in. What I find ironic is the same people that insult the Church were the same people who were calling for communism in the 60s-80s.
You might not agree with all the Church’s teachings on AIDS, abortion, homosexuals and even faith. But the Church is the only organisation in the world that a 100% record when it comes to protecting the human race, think about that next time you hear a rant, who do you count on to defend your rights, the hateful atheist or the Church that has been protecting rights for over 2000 years?
Firstly, let us briefly examine the history of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church came into being around 40 A.D with the first Pope St.Peter it became legal around 400 A.D (following 400 years or rigorous persecution) with the reign of Emperor Constantine. The Church continued as the one branch of Catholicism up until 1000 with the first schism and then leading up to the reformation in the 1500’s. There have been no substantial break ups since the 1500’s. In that entire time, around 2000 years the Church has never changed its stance on any area of teaching, it has equivocally held up the same teachings for over 2000 years. Those teachings for the most part have been of peace and following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and since when was following Jesus’ example a bad thing?
The Church’s role over the last 100 years has been nothing but inspirational, and a close examination will reveal the hidden mysteries that the religion hating moguls don’t want you to see. In the 1940’s in Germany no organisation or group of people stood up to Hitler except one, and no it wasn’t a bunch of atheists it was the Catholic Church. Albert Einstein had this to say:
‘"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty”
Isn’t is amazing how this fact is never publicised by those people?
Even in the last 25 years the Church has been the center of the criticism of horrendous governments, in the late 1980’s what was the organisation that stood up to communism in Poland? Who was the man who rang the Russian president and ordered him to withdraw his troops from Poland? It was not the U.S President, it was the Pope. No one else, stood up to be counted. The Pope had the courage, and he and the Church stood up for what it believed in. What I find ironic is the same people that insult the Church were the same people who were calling for communism in the 60s-80s.
You might not agree with all the Church’s teachings on AIDS, abortion, homosexuals and even faith. But the Church is the only organisation in the world that a 100% record when it comes to protecting the human race, think about that next time you hear a rant, who do you count on to defend your rights, the hateful atheist or the Church that has been protecting rights for over 2000 years?
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by Damo
You obviously have done your homework. Unlike the muck rackers who are only looking for evil scapegoats and in that I commend you.
I always have great misgiving when I see vitriolic rants against another persons religion.
A point by point comparison with some thing else may be valid but often people try to compare the worst of their enemy with the best of themselves. This is fraudulent test system that only fools the tester who not interested in the truth.
By my connections to Sri Lanka I have seen with my own eyes who is doing good and who is doing evil and who is standing idly by taking pleasure from the pain of others. I could easily write diatribes that would rock the emotions and put fear into the hearts of grown men. I could easily look for scapegoats and present just the truth and facts that I wanted to produce with photos and videos to match. Yet to do so would make me a one eyed hate monger and part of the problem.
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
And the crusades, if basic history lessons are anything to go by I seem to recall the Muslim armies invading a Christian country and that Christian country (Byzantine) called on the world for help to defend itself. The other Christians countries fought the invading Muslims and freed that country, what is possibly wrong with that?
Oh yes the spanish inquisition, once again a little bit of research would have held you in good stead. The inquisition was ran by the Spanish monarchy NOT the Church. It was purely a political inquisition.
Please don't spread lies, a little bit of research would help.
Comment by RubySoho
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But rest assured, they do exist.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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and wasnt The Spanish Inquisition authorized in 1478 by Pope Sixtus IV? thats fairly strongly affiliated with the Catholic Churh
and yes you are correct about the original reason for the First Crusade but the Catholic Church pursued the issue over nine different crusades invading many other countries with the authority of many different Popes. Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims but campaigns were also directed against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, and political enemies of the Popes.
part of the motivation of the Crusades was to stop the spread of rival religions, i think its a big call to say it was done 100% for the benefit of the human race
im not spreading lies im just pointing out the Catholic Church does on occassion cause or contribute to human suffering
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
Comment by RubySoho
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Bill Gates is an atheist. He gives millions.
But really Tom. A 100% record of protecting human rights?
The Church used forced labour given to it by the Nazis. Yes, they just admitted it. Look it up.
Also, the Spanish Inquisition was given the blessing of the Church. Who do you think was the spiritual advisor of Ferdinand and Isabella?
And then there is the small matter of the Medieval Inquisition. Yes, there was more than one. This one was run by the Church. It was the priests and the Bishops who did all the torturing. And the murdering.
And please don't start on Calcutta. But if you must go there please explain to me how Mother Theresa could use all the money she was given, not to improve conditions in her poor houses but simply expand them so she could glorify in the poverty and misery of the dying. Please explain to me why, when she got sick she used some of that money to fly to the US and get treated by some of the best doctors in the world. Please explain to me how she could say that other people's suffering made her feel close to God. Please explain to me how she could possibly have said " the greatest threat to world peace is abortion".
If you can't explain, I can. She was a fraud. Like so many before her, she was a fraud.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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to name a few:
International Humanist and Ethical Union
Doctors Without Borders
Amnesty
Comment by RubySoho
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Action Against Hunger.
Comment by Matthew Pejkovic
In the short amount of time I have been apart of the Orble community, I have always been taken back by the extremely offensive and insensitive attidude you have taken towards Christianity, and the Catholic Church in general.
While some of your posts do give pause for thought - as you no doubt intended - your decree that Mother Theresa was a fraud in spite of the decades of servtitude to the people of Calcutta -which garnered her the Nobel Peace Prize - brings forth the underlying truth found in many of your rants, namely: that you are an anti-Catholic bigot who holds such contempt for the Church -and religion in general - that it has clouded your supposedly "rational" inquiry into matters of faith (and its place in our world) to a point of no return.
You seem to have taken a position where you believe the Catholic Church and Cathoics in general view themselves as infailable creatures of divine heritage, yet this is completely untrue.
Catholics - just like everyone else - are extremely flawed people. Mistakes have - and will - be made during the Church's lifetime.
I view it as a process of evolution. As the Earth grows older, and knowledge and wisdom is taken on, so to does the church become older and wiser, taking on knowledge whilst also asking questions and providing its own decree on matters such as abortion, stem cell research and homosexuality, as it is there right to do so.
In the process the Church has evolved with numerous reformations over the years, whilst always paying penance and asking for forgiveness for its past sins brought on in its infancy (Crusades, Inquisition).
Yes, Bill Gates does give away millions of dollars to charities, and there are a number of non-religious charities. Yet you seem to forget that the concept of Charity is a Christian one, spoke highly of in a book which you comdemn for being out dated and dangerous.
Also, I find it slightly humorous that you view Christianity as highly misogynistic, while overlooking the fact that women such as Mary Magdalene and the Holy Mother Mary are two of the most revered figures within the religion.
Here are some links for you:
Really Long Link
Really Long Link
The above is an intersting site, and has my full support as well as the support of many Catholics.
The Church has a long way to go. The arradictaion of Pedophile priests and the ordination of women priests are two prominent sticking points which the Church must adhere to.
But just as it has done many times before, the Church will evolve to an even greater position.
Perhaps it is time you looked at these issues in a much more open matter, and become less offensive in your rants and more subjective to what the Church is about.
Labelling people as frauds, misogynists, superstitious fools, child abusers, and the scum of the Earth based upon their beliefs is not intelligent nor rational.
In your own words: Think. Think again. And Think Some More.
God Bless you,
Matthew Pejkovic
Comment by RubySoho
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I'm sorry if you think I am being harsh on the Church but as I have stated on my own blog, I view religious ideology as an ideology like any other and thus it is open to criticism. The Church is very active and prominent in public life and thus should be available to scrutiny. I approach it in the same way I approach politics or anything else. If I referred to John McCain as a fraud, would you call me a hateful bigot? And I don't really think winning the Nobel Peace Prize is anything to go by. Henry Kissinger won that too didn't he?
By the way, I don't recall having ever said anything untoward about Catholics in general. My criticism has always been directed at the Church itself. I also never used the terms "child abusers" and especially not "the scum of the earth. If you are going to criticise me then actually quote me, don't put words in my mouth.
Matt, I am never going to stop criticise organised religion. Just like I am never going to stop criticising politicians. In my mind they are pretty much the same thing.
Besides which, I am responding to a post which basically called all atheists liars and hatemongers. Why is it acceptable that we are called thus but when we speak up we suffer a backlash?
If you disagree with any of the points I brought up, then I suggest you find some information to prove me wrong. If you can do that then I will admit the error of my ways and fully apologise. But don't just call me offensive because all I will reply to you is that I find religion extremely offensive. I found Mother Theresa's behaviour extremely offensive to the poor, sick people she was supposedly caring for.
That you think the veneration of the Virgin Mary is not misogynistic is quite laughable. Why is it that she is loved so? Oh yeah, SHE WAS A VIRGIN! Untainted, pure, not a dirty woman who had sex like the rest of us. Give a break honestly.
And what I find most offensive Matthew is the way you conclude your own rant with the words "God bless you". It is that kind of condescending and superior attitude that annoys us atheists most, do you not realise that?
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
Firstly, I do not hate atheists, I however feel that many atheists treat atheism like a religion which is very thing they are trying to stop. The Atheist Foundation of Australia says in its constitution that it aim is to 'spread atheism', this is the kind of thing we have to contend with, people who hate religion but yet go around spreading their own in their own selfish manner. As for Atheism giving money to charity, the biggest private aid giver in the world is the Catholic Church, besides Amnesty(which is half catholic) I never even heard of the other charities. So much for the good atheism does, it doesn't exist.
As for Mother Teresa honestly grow up, thats like saying Hitler was a top bloke. Nobel Peace Price, numerous international awards. She was a saint. The center of criticism about her seems to be around the poor conditions of her hospital, I tell you what its hard to run a good hospital in a 3rd world country with no money. GROW UP.
As for Mary, (I noticed you let Magadelene slide) she is the most venerated figure besides Christ in the Church, the fact that you think she is venerated because she was a virgin really demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the Church. She is venerated because she is Christ's mother and for her immense strength of character and her charitable intercession. If she wore not a virgin, it would not matter in the slightest. By saying 'virgin Mary', one is not expressing Mary as wonderful because she was a virgin, but in awe about how God made a Virgin pregnant. Learn your facts.
Your whole rant seems to be based around half-trues and simply lies. I suggest you think about the God that Catholicism has done for this world, and cease to criticize one of the few good things we as humans have.
Comment by Damo
Just wanted add my vote to how you are handling this.
It is easy to get annoyed at bookworms who have done nothing more than read hate literature and have never been to a third world country or looked inside those hospitals.
Mother Teresa only got accolades after years of scorn and death threats and riots to remove her. She only narrowly escaped a lynch mob in India by a mob that that was angry that Catholic was helping the poor in India.
Long before the film crews and books on her life.
The chief of police was sent down to remove her from the hospital that she set up to tend to the poorest of the poor and drive out of town. When he arrived at the hospital he saw the work she was doing then went back the angry mob and asked who was going to look after the sick she was caring for. Like all these hatchet people today it was not going to be anyone of them.
So my challenge to any one who wishes to condemn Mother Teresa compare what you have personally done for the poor and the poorest of the poor.
If she is a fraud then show me how you are not a fraud by doing the same work.
Everything else is just hot air.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thankyou Matthew for clarifying from a religious point of view
Tom,
that was the crux of what i was trying to say to you, that the Church does not have a 100% perfect record, does it make it less of a lie if a fellow Christian says it?
the Church and some people who take their cues from the Church do some wonderful charity work yes, but it is ridiculous to say that because of this they have made no mistakes or caused no harm . . . it is equally ridiculous to say that non-religious people are never charitable . . . there is good and bad in every person and every organisation
this is from Amnesty Internationals website
The overwhelming majority of our income comes from individuals the world over. These personal and unaffiliated donations allow AI to maintain full independence from any and all governments, political ideologies, economic interests or religions. We neither seek nor accept any funds for human rights research from governments or political parties and we accept support only from businesses that have been carefully vetted. By way of ethical fundraising leading to donations from individuals, we are able to stand firm and unwavering in our defence of universal and indivisible human rights.
i dont know how that makes them "half Catholic"
i have been a member of Amnesty and participated in their fundraising for many years and im an atheist . . . as do many of my atheist friends . . . an atheist is someone who does not personally believe in god, not someone trying to "stop" religion
Comment by RubySoho
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Damo,I may not have run decrepit houses for the poor, but nor do I claim to be a "saint", nor have I been falsely venerated by millions. Nor have I accepted millions of dollars from murderous dictators. By this logic what you are saying is that no one can ever be criticised for anything. I have never been the President of the United States. Does that mean I am not allowed to criticise George Bush?
But on the subject of Mother Theresa:
1. She served in the Second Vatican Council and staunchly fought against all reforms.
2. She flew to Ireland in 1996 and fought to uphold the ban on divorce and re-marriage. Thankfully she lost. That same year she incredibly gave an interview with The Ladies Home Journal where she stated how pleased she was that her friend Princess Diana had gotten a divorce because her marriage was so unhappy.
3. She accepted money from the Duvalier family in Haiti and praised their oppressive rule in return. They were murderous dictators who stole money form the public treasury.
4. She recieved millions in donations but the decrepit state of her poor houses never improved. Nor, did her order ever publish any audit.
5. She claimed to be a friend of the poor but by staunchly refusing any reform and by upholding the Catholic ban on contraception she was condemning more people to a life of abject poverty.
6. She recieved many millions in donations but still only served bowls of soup to the poor. The people she housed slept on the floor. She would treat the sick with old unsterilzed needles without any anaesthetic or painkillers
And this is what she has to say for herself:
"The suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering,"
"the most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the sufferings of Christ"
"You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you!"
hmmm. Does that mean that Jesus was not kissing her when she got treated in some of the best health clinics in California? Presumably with sterilized needles and painkillers. Presumably again she did not have to share a bed with another person nor did she sleep on the floor. I'm sure she was attended to by trained doctors.
This is your idea of a saint?
Comment by Damo
In other words you are doing absolutely nothing.
You are a fraud.
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
Comment by RubySoho
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How dare you criticise Scientology if you have never belonged to a cult?
How dare you condemn an abortion if you are not a woman?
Who are you to speak out against stem cell research if you are not a scientist?
You cannot criticise politicians unless you are a politician.
Wanna be a film critic? Hope you've made a few movies otherwise s too bad, you are a fraud.
That is the most twisted logic I have ever heard.
And I thought you said it was rude to butt into other people's conversations?
Tom: Interesting you only picked up on the whole suffering thing. What about the fact that she was a millionaire who travelled on private jets as she traipsied all over the world hey? And what about this little pearler of a quote from her own diary?:
"I feel that God does not want me, that God is
not God and that he does not really exist. People think my faith, my hope and my love are overflowing and that my intimacy with God and union with his will fill my heart. If only they knew...Heaven means nothing."
Ooh let's repeat that last bit shall we? HEAVEN MEANS NOTHING.
FRAUD.
And Tom, the fact that you can make such statements like "the Church has never changed its teachings" and "has always supported human rights" shows that you know absolutely nothing about the Catholic Church. Pick up a book sometime. Any book. As long as it isn't the Bible.
And I thought you said you were a socialist? Where has all this religiosity come from all of a sudden?
Comment by Damo
So when are you going to pack your bags and work with poorest of the poor?
Which 3 World hospitals are you personally building?
Comment by RubySoho
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Oh, and I thought I'd swing by Jerusalem and solve the Arab-Israeli conflict whilst I was at it.
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I don't necessarily agree with the teachings of the church - any of them - but just as much as there has been harm done in the name of God; war, inquisitions etc, there has been an immense amount of good also done in the name of God. I don't believe in religion as such but I do believe in good and bad, in morality and immorality but the boundaries of such are very much a personal thing and with each religion comes a different set of rules. But one thing I think we should agree on are the fundamentals of humanity.
It is not necessarily solely a Christian belief to treat others the way you would wish to be treated, to try and improve the world in some way, to help others whenever and wherever you can, to respect others etc, that all comes from being a good human being.
I think it's a generalisation to call athiests hateful as most aren't. I'm sure there are some but not the majority. The same as there are some very hateful Christians such as the Ku Klux Klan but they are not the majority. I have friends that are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Pagan and athiest. The one thing they all have in common are they are all good people. Their faiths may differ but the reason that I love them is that they are good people.
I think stating 'But the Church is the only organisation in the world that a 100% record when it comes to protecting the human race' is what I think people have taken exception to. No church or religion can have a 100% record of good because anything that has human involvement is not infallible. People are not perfect. Mistakes have been made and atrocities committed over the ages because that is part of humanity. The dark part. But all humans are capable of darkness as is anything that is run or organised by humans. It is in the heart of the faithful that God is infallible. To think the church is infallible is prideful.
I think I know what you were trying to say with your post, that many good things come from the hearts of those with faith and those that are a part your faith. I strongly believe that every individual has a right to their own belief system without being condemned by others. Your faith is obviously a large part of who you are and you are proudly Christian. You shouldn't have to defend your faith to others, nor should gays have to defend who they are or women have to defend their choices. I also strongly belief that you have the right to feel differently than me about homosexuality or abortion etc. I only have a problem with people forcing their beliefs or opinions on others.
There have been a lot of attacks on religion by non-believers and vice-versa. I think the one thing we should all practice regardless of our faith or lack thereof is tolerance for the differences we may have or the beliefs we may hold. We are all human beings first and foremost.
Comment by Damo
So when are you leaving to help poorest of the poor?
I am happy to provide the addresses of hospitals where children are on Chemotherapy are sleeping on the floors.
Or are you really just all hot air?
Comment by RubySoho
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When are you going to actually formulate an argument?
I am happy to get it started for you:
Mother Theresa was not a fraud because......
Think you can finish that sentence for me?
Comment by Matthew Pejkovic
The links should work now.
Your text goes here
Your text goes here
My ending my post with God Bless You was not meant to be condescending at all. It came straight from the heart of a believer of God to a non-believer, and meant in the best possible terms. Your extreme reaction to it speaks volumes about your character and attitude towards theists.
Your accusations against Mother Theresa sound like they have been lifted straight out of the pages of Christopher Hitchens "Missionary Position".
For those who don't know, Christopher Hitchens is something of a poster boy for atheists, and "Missionary Position" is highly regarded in anti-theist circles.
However it is also a poorly sourced book, and is fueled by Hitchens highly publicised hatred for organized religion. In fact, his hatred runs so deep that his relationship with his brother Peter Hitchens has been in tatters for some time because of it.
Hitchens is also a stern advocate for the invasion of Iraq, as well as other dubious actvities:
Your text goes here
Or, perhaps you have seen Hitchen's on Penn and Teller's B*lls**t!.
For those who don't know, Penn and Teller are atheist magicians who host their own TV show "debunking" popular myths usually via one sided rants.This Includes their belief that their is no such thing as Global Warming.
So, with such flawed character references as prime sources for the case against Mother Theresa, forgive me if I take their word as a bunch of bull.
But then again, maybe your sources come from else where. I don't know, there was no mention in your posts.
Dare I say it (with no offense intended),
God Bless You,
Matthew Pejkovic
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
Your points on Mother Theresa are not exactly valid. So she opposed reforms at Vatican 2, that is a real non-issue for me. I mean seriously so she cares about her faith and she wants to practice it in a particular way, what is wrong with that?
Ok so she wants to stop remarriage, that is common Catholic doctrine. As Jesus says anyone who remarries after divorce commits adultery, that what he said, she as a Catholic has a duty to uphold that. As For Princes Diana she congratulated her on leaving an unhappy divorce, there's nothing wrong with that If she congratulated on her on getting remarried there would be an issue, but she didn't. With the poor conditions let us remember that the hospital is in a 3rd world country, I defy you to find a first class medical facility there on the funds she had. Let us also remember she is running an order and there are other hospitals to support. She did all she could with what she had. Honestly as I said before criticizing her is like professing your love for Hitler.
Ok, Damo is simply asking you are criticizing the Church who provides aid when you give no aid yourself, it is a very,very valid point.
Now as for Mother Theresa's quote about not believing in God and such, I totally sympathise with that. As St.Thomas Aquinas said 'doubt rekindles faith'. Just because you have doubt does not mean you do not believe in God, its natural. We all have doubts, and with the stuff she was seeing its perfectly understandable. Honestly what an idiotic point.
The Church has made mistake but as a whole no other organisation in all history has done as much good. If there is one please provide it...... didn't think so.
Yes, I am a socialist, but I am wise enough to distinguish faith from the system of government, and I do not agree with some of Marx's writings which further illustrate this point.
I have researched the Church for years, and honestly the bad it has done is so outweighed by the good it is amazing anyone has the mind to question it.
Comment by RubySoho
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Secondly, the fact that Hitchens supported the invasion of Iraq does not mean he is incapable of researching his books properly. I don't agree with Hitchens on everything but even with his numerous faults he is still regarded as one of the greatest intellectuals of our time. He is not in the habit of producing badly researched works.
I'm not even gong to go into Penn and Teller and Global Warming as this has nothing to do with them.
Here are my primary sources:
"India has no reason to be grateful to Mother Teresa"
by Sanal Edamaruku
President of Rationalist International
Really Long Link
Mother Theresa: Faithless Fraud and Hypocrite by Michael Parenti
Really Long Link
And this is my favourite:
Former Catholic Sister Says Even Mother Theresa Was A Fraud by Greg Szymanski.
This article features a first hand interview with a nun who worked in Theresa's Missionaries of Charity. here is the opening paragraph:
For nine years Susan Shields worked as a devoted Catholic Sister, working for Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity. When finally becoming fed-up in 1989, she left Mother Teresa in disgust over the misuse of millions in charitable donations that never got to their destination -- the poor and afflicted.
Really Long Link
Comment by Damo
Actions speak louder than words.
When are you going to personally leave your comfortable little life, fly to a third world country and go to help the poorest of the poor?
Or are you just all hot air?
Comment by RubySoho
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“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power”
“Since the Jews are the slaves of the Church, she can dispose of their possessions”
“If forgers and malefactors are put to death by the secular power, there is much more reason for excommunicating and even putting to death one convicted of heresy”
“That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell”
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
Comment by RubySoho
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Besides which, you'd think a saint would have been a saint no matter when he lived. And didn't you bring him up anyway?
By the way Tom, as a socialist who wishes to see a more even distribution of wealth, how do you feel about the riches that the Church has amassed even as most of its brethren live in poverty?
And you have not told me how you feel about the fact that
Mother T had private jets and spent more time hanging out with her rich friends then she did helping the poor?
How can you possibly reconcile that with your socialist principles?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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1. YMCA (christian)
2. Salvation Army (christian)
3. Red Cross (non-religious)
4. Catholic Charities (catholic)
.
6. United Jewish Communities (jewish)
.
.
.
13. World Vision (christian)
14. Planned Parenthood (non-religious)
.
.
18. Boy Scouts
.
21. Girl Scouts
.
24. CARE (non-religious)
.
33. UNICEF (non-religious)
so while christian organisations do some fabulous work you surely must admit non-catholic and non-religious charities are not entirely absent
i just picked a few familiar ones, to see the full list click this link
Really Long Link
the Chronicle of Philanthropy (another USA publication) ranked Catholic Charities USA number 11 out of 400 american non-profit organisations
to see the top 10 click this link
Really Long Link
Comment by Damo
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Comment by Damo
You showed yours a long time ago.
BTW
When are you going to go overseas and work with the poorest of the poor?
Never?
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by Damo
It was a statement of fact.
You put them up as self evidently good because they were legally a charity.
Yet Sanger had an agenda that started as an advocacy for eugenics and euthanasia. She is still being venerated on the all the Planned Parenthood sites. They also unreservedly support the Margaret Sanger Foundation. Nice picture of her looking intellectual. No mention of her dark little plans for Race Hygiene through Negative Euthanasia.
Today they still have an extreme anti-Catholic agenda that has not changed from day one.
But you knew that already.
Before you included them in your list of the "good guys".
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
i didnt write the list, Planned Parenthood earnt a place on the list due to their fundraising capacity for womens rights . . . just as the Catholic Church earnt their place for their fundraising, not the top spot but still it was a good effort, as are all the other charities . . . i posted the list to illustrate that all charity work is not done solely by the Catholic Church but to confirm they are playing a significant role
i guess if there are people that think practising charity makes the Catholic Church a "good guy" who shouldnt be questioned and be forgiven for all their past mistakes maybe the same logic should be applied to other philanthropic organisations like Planned Parenthood?
Comment by Damo
The point is one of the original agenda and what the current agenda is. The original agenda was eugenics the current agenda? Planned Parent raises money in part to fund an extreme anti-catholic agenda.
They are a repository of misinformation and intentional distortions that end up being little more than sound bites for hate groups.
And I guess that is the entire point isn't it?
Also there a world of difference between interested philanthropy and disinterested charity.
One counts the dollars they raise the other does the work without seeking anything in return.
Charity cannot just be measured in dollars of individual organizations because you have to add all the organization under the Catholic Church together.
Do that sum and come back.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
at what exact point did the amount of good work that the Catholic Church does become so overwhelming that it rendered all other charities negligible?
if you have some actual figures that prove that nobody other than the Catholic Church does any charity work i would be genuinely interested to see them
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Wonder why?
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Of course, anything that improves the lives of those who need it most is good. But it would be even better if done without the pall of organized religion hanging over it. It's timely I came upon this post as I am pondering starting an explicitly atheist relief organization.
Funny, the religious have always felt more than free to criticize whomever they want, from what the deem cults to atheists and free-thinkers. It's more than high time we turn the tables.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Johnny Come Lately
Jack's Back
This is the very reason I rarely discuss my faith. It is my own business and there is always going to be someone with an opposing view and they are as entitled to it as I am to mine.
Comment by Tom Craven
Independent Australian By Thomas J Craven
Comment by Damo
You are so right there.
Damn, I hate when I am wrong.
Time for me to make an exit.
No point talking if no will listen.
I can be so clever sometimes that I can forget to be smart.
Sorry Tom for overusing your blog.
Comment by voodoochild